Real Canadians Talking Real Health Care

As a Canadian, I will verify that everything these people are saying is the truth. I have been lucky enough to not require any great amount of care due to disease or accident, but it is very reassuring to know that should anything happen to me, I will be taken care of and not driven into bankruptcy. My brother has cerebral palsy and has required a great deal of care, from surgeries to physio to wheelchairs to classroom assistants, and my parents would probably have gone broke and not been able to help my other brother and I with our university educations.
Thank God I'm a Canadian.
(Although this whole debate is good for a few laughs for us.)

Great video, Shoq. I'm Canadian and love the system. I lived in California for a year in 1980, and had to go to a doctor. So weird to have to pay to see what in Canada is always paid for. I think Americans are afraid of a national health care system because it smacks of socialism/communism. Um, it just makes sense.

Wonderful and sincere post...thank you.

I have been mailing this very informative post to all my US relatives, friends and email pals. The response to it has been great..comments hilarious as they try to figure out why the people aren't yelling etc.

I also live 30 miles from Hilton Beach...in Sault Ste. Marie, Ontario. The residents of that small village are the salt of the earth. Honest, great neighbours and hard working.

Living in a Border City, I have witnessed many US citizens arriving by the bus load..to fill their prescriptions and vitamin needs. It is a well known fact by many US citizens that Canada drugs / vitamins are far cheaper than in the States.

I hope President Obama will able to suceed with his vision of a good HCRPlan for EVERY US citizen. It is despartly needed by ALL citizens.

Just makes you wonder why the US cannot do this for its citizens. We're becoming an uncivilized nation.

22000 die each year because they can't afford healthcare. EACH YEAR!!!
millions go bankrupt due to medical bill and they HAVE insurance. THEY HAVE INSURANCE and they went bankrupt!
insurance premiums DOUBLED since 1999, and will DOUBLE in another 10 years.
insurance companies only care about profit. they deny coverage, ration care, and will dump you immediately if you get really sick, ex. cancer, in a process called rescission. so you can premiums for years, but if your child gets really sick, they will dump you immediately and not pay a dime for treatment. good luck trying to get care without insurance or money (chemotherapy and the rest is 10s of thousands of dollar per month). and in the US it's legal.

becoming uncivilized? we are uncivilized.

On the morning of the 24th of December 1998, I awoke with chest pains. I had no car so I walked to the nearest hospital. By the time I saw the doctor at 7:30 am I no longer had chest pains. He hooked me up to an ECC and said I looked fine... but he didn't like the sound of my original symptoms. An ambulance took me to another hospital where I had a stress test that revealed a cardiac blockage. Another ambulance took me to a third hospital, where I was operated on. An Angiogram that revealed a 98% blockage followed immediately by an Angioplasty and the insertion of a stent. I was sown up and placed under observation for several hours. By 8:30 pm I was back at home.
.
Total cost to me... $14.50 (the cost of my cab ride from the third hospital to my home).
.
I wanted to retire to the US and discovered because of my "pre-existing" heart problems NO insurance company will cover me... Here in Canada that isn't an issue... everybody's covered.

in the US
stress test for symptoms that had passed (rich - sure, insured normally - maybe, poor/no insurance - not on their life, literally because when they do the wallet biopsy and show you can't pay, they put you on the waiting list at a community hospital, so I can only hope that nothing happens to you till the appointment)
ambulance (you better be dying, can't pay = no way, if you're rich - sure)
angiogram/angioplasty/stent (rich - sure, insured - maybe, but probably waiting list, poor - not on their lives, unless you're actually dying or almost dead)
total cost - 10s of thousands of dollars (rich - no problem, insured normally - probably denied coverage and go bankrupt, poor/no insurance - you'll never get to this point unless you're actually dying)

Great video. Now concentrate that effort on Americans. It is their opinion that really matters. No amount of Canadian opinion will change the minds of 100M or so people in America that are needed for public opinion to shift.

We posted your terrific video on

http://healthcare.democratsabroad.ca

please visit for opinions from Americans living in Canada.

I am a Canadian and I thought about going to work in the United States, but the health care situation has put that idea on hold. I can't understand how souless and evil the insurance companies are in the U.S. Why can't they act like responsible corporate citizens instead of denying people coverage and charging rediculous premiums. I have heard from my aunt in Minnesota that the average premium was $12,000 per year. How does any middle wage income earner afford that? That's why Americans need to fight for the public option. Don't let the right wing cronies deny your right to affordable healthcare.

in the US,
22000 die each year because they can't afford healthcare. EACH YEAR!!!
millions go bankrupt due to medical bill and they HAVE insurance. THEY HAVE INSURANCE and they went bankrupt!
insurance premiums DOUBLED since 1999, and will DOUBLE in another 10 years.
insurance companies only care about profit. they deny coverage, ration care, and will dump you immediately if you get really sick, ex. cancer, in a process called rescission. so you can premiums for years, but if your child gets really sick, they will dump you immediately and not pay a dime for treatment. good luck trying to get care without insurance or money (chemotherapy and the rest is 10s of thousands of dollar per month). and in the US it's legal.

I can only hope that never happens to Canadians.
But you should be careful. I hear the conservatives are slowly turning Canada into looking like the US, starting with your healthcare system. good luck.

The Conservatives have been neutered in Canada because they are a minority government in Parliament. They don't have the power to pass any legislation which would privitize Canadian health care. Even if they did have the power to do that, they wouldn't dare knowing that would be political disaster for their party. The only thing we have seen in Canada is the more private clinics in provinces. That's not a big deal since mainly rich people go there for elective surgeries and minor procedures. I have plenty of options for clinics and doctors that I can go to.

I'm another Canadian. Our healthcare system has problems because the corporate-friendly Liberals (think "blue-dog Democrats") had Paul Martin cut provincial transfer payments, most of which go to healthcare. Because the system is cash-starved and the Canadian Medical Association has let the greed of its members cause them to allow fewer MDs to graduate than are needed, the system has some improving to do.

That being said, anyone who doubts that the video is an accurate representation of how we feel about the single-payer system is wrong.

Americans, your mainstream media doesn't care if you live or die and most of your elected officials are lying to you.

Our healthcare IS free, our doctors are world-class. Seniors and welfare recipients get excellent and timely care ( I have seen two elderly parents through 2 hip replacements, 1 knee replacement, cancer treatment, and treatment for dementia).

Any talk about "Communism", "death panels", governments choosing physicians etc. are lies and/or the ravings of lunatics.

Come out of the 3rd world and join us!

Great video - I've never talked to a Canadian who wanted American healthcare, including family members. Love the line "it's like you're living in a third world country." We are, we are. Also talked to Scots this week who are totally baffled by Americans.

This is a great video and I think it accurately reflects how we feel about our healthcare system in Canada. I was speaking to some US friends about this very topic last month. I'm a small business owner with no health care coverage. And I don't worry about it. But my US friends are worried about being small business owners with no health care coverage.

To see how poorly US health care compares to the rest of the world go to:
http://bit.ly/13OPQe
What I have found
· 33 Countries have higher Life Expectancy
· 39 Countries have lower Infant Mortality Rates
· 44 Countries have lower adult mortality (15 to 60)
· 192 Countries spend a lower % of GDP on health care.

· Japan, Australia, Sweden, Spain, Israel, Austria, Norway all have higher life expectancy, about ½ our infant mortality rate, and they spend a much smaller % of their GDP on health care, (some spend 50% of what we spend as a % of GDP). Maybe we could learn something.*

As a Canadian - I can tell you EVERYTHING they said was 100% true. I've had my appendix out, 2 c-sections, my gall bladder out, several hospital stays....and I've never seen ONE bill. I have no idea what ANY of that cost.

We got an ambulance bill for $300 when I had my gall-bladder attack and were OUTRAGED. We called them and it went away then and there. Covered.

The government doesn't tell us what we can, can't or should/shouldn't get. They don't interfere at ALL. We make our own care choices with the medical professionals. Period.

Amen. Thank you for sharing your experience!

Another real Canadian here and nope - wouldn't change our system, especially to anything like the US has. It's absolutely not a "perfect" system, nothing is. But I know so many people who have benefited incredibly. I have heard rare stories of people who wait forever for some service, but usually for things that are not critical, even if important (aka knee surgery - sucks to wait but not exactly life threatening).

My youngest niece was born with multiple heart defects. My sister had no money and the defects weren't detected until birth. But the baby was immediately sent to a top class facility, she had a surgery right away and another procedure a couple of months later. These are hugely expensive surgeries but my sister sure never saw a bill. In fact, the hospital staff helped my sister get into the Ronald McDonald house to be near her infant, provided free pumping supplies so she could keep her milk supply up and helped connect her with a social support system.

I'm sure I don't fully understand the American health system, but I KNOW for a fact that any Canadian who needs a heart transplant, cancer treatment or has a stroke, etc, etc, etc - gets treatment and no bill. That's worth a lot, isn't it?

It's worth everything. Thanks so much for sharing your perspective.

Please pass a reform bill so I and others can have care.

There is no such thing as the "Canadian" health care system. Health is a matter of Provincial jurisdiction.

Here in Ontario, Canada, our system has some problems. We have doctor shortages in some areas and waiting lists for specialists can be long. It's not perfect. But everyone has essential health care. Nobody has a heart attack and ends up taking out a loan to pay the bill. Nobody fears loosing their job and not having insurance coverage for medically necessary surgery. Nobody needs to put off important medical procedures because they can't afford the bill. And retired Canadians who winter in the south are careful to document that they spend enough time at home to continue their provincial coverage.

Our system needs improvement, but moving to a private system as is common in the USA would be a huge step backwards.

just always remember in the US
22000 die each year because they can't afford insurance. EACH YEAR!
millions go bankrupt due to medical bills and they HAVE insurance. THEY HAVE INSURANCE!
premiums have doubled since 1999, and will double in another 10 years.
insurance companies deny coverage, ration care, and will dump you immediately if you get really sick, ex. cancer, in a process called rescission. so even if you pay premiums for years, if your child gets really sick, they will dump you immediately and not pay a dime for treatment. good luck trying to get care without insurance or money (chemotherapy and the rest is 10s of thousands of dollar per month).

remember, in the US they make profit at the expense of people's pain and suffering. and they will deny you whenever they can even if you die.

Thank you so much for doing this!

I'm a Canadian and I've lived in Canada all my life. I've never met anyone here who would trade what we have for the US system. Not one.

If you're interested in hearing more from a "Real Canadian," here's my perspective on the issue:

http://myalphabetsalad.blogspot.com/2009/08/hea...

Thanks for putting up the Canadian healthcare video. I'm the guy who made it and I just thought I'd add a few things that are not explicit in the video, but that came through loud and clear as I talked to these people. Absolutely everyone had the attitude that healthcare is a basic right that should be available to everyone, rich or poor, native or immigrant, black or white, rural or urban. This attitude extended to the problems in the system -- if you need to wait for a procedure so that someone who needs it more goes in front of you, that is exactly as it should be. It's not that there is no waiting, it's that they accept the wait as a small price to pay for never having a large price to pay. The controversy in Canada -- and nobody thinks the system is perfect -- centers on two things: how they can get more doctors into the system to reduce the waiting, and how long you should have to live in Canada before you can get into the system (it's currently 3 months -- pretty tempting, eh?).

Hey Andy. Just wanted to say that how long until you get into the system has nothing to do with any debate that EVER happens here. And, if you want to get really technical, the problem is not actually that we dont' have enough doctors. In fact, we have the same numbers per capita now that we did back in the 70s when we were loaded. The problems are: there are more woman doctors who don';t work as many hours. More men don't work as many hours as their fathers. (I heard this fact on a CBC documentary last winter and was flabbergasted when a Dr. Steven Lewis -- a health care analyst-- said this. )

And as I pointed out in my other post down below, we have fill the province with doctors, but if the govt won't pay for more operating time in the ORs the backlogs will never be taken care of.

Finally, there is the issue of federal transfer payments.

We will never be perfect here, but we're way better than you guys.

Hey - great video!!

I'm an ex=pat living in Los Angeles for 30 years now (!). I am aghast at the health care situation here, and have been fighting to open the eyes of bamboozled Yankees for years. My husband (American) and I have a small business, just the two of us, and for basic coverage we pay $1k/month with 2K annual deductible EACH, $45 co-pay for every doctor visit, and most of the prescriptions are barely covered, so we pay about $300/month in prescription bills. If we didn't have these expenses, but instead contributed to a NON-PROFIT system via taxes, we'd be better off, everyone else would be better off, AND we might even be able to hire an employee! Americans can't do math!

May I please use your quote above while trying to open ignorant, fear-mongered American eyes?

Thanks for this great video!!

The corporations love to fear-monger Americans into privatized health-care. Big corporations can afford health for their employees thus giving them an edge over small business. If you make health care available for everyone then god forbid that big companies might not have that benefit over small ones anymore.

It's great, but it makes me sad too. It kind of puts us to shame. I have been putting the link in emails to Congressmen, Senators and Preisdent Obama. I just wish everyone could see it.

My daughter married a Norwegian and lives there. They have health care too, and can't imagine living any place without it, which means here.

wonderful little video!!

Take a look at this video from Canadians about their health care. Doesn't it make you envious? Does me! I think they're doing it the right way.

Way to go, Shoq! Passing along to everyone. @unfunn.

Brilliant and true.

you guys nailed it. thanks.

I sit here with my blood pressure elevate, trying to stay calm, hoping for some medical attention after we have healthcare reform. Please pass it.

I laughed at their "co-pay?" reactions. Wish I could have that same reaction.

I've talked to Canadians and had the same things said to me. There are some mundane problems, but they wouldn't give it up for the world.

Re: The accents: How can you not hear the accents? I picked them up right away. heh.

Westerners tend to have a bit more of an accent, people from Alberta and Saskatchewan particularly.

I talked frquently with some Canadians and a couple of people from the UK on a blog I use and they do NOT feel the way the right claims AT ALL. The question is what will it take to bring the ignorant masses around, not just getting them to ignore the idiotic Congress critters who somehow are allowed to lie through their nasty teeth, but also the moronic press who "propagates the propaganda" for them because they are apparently too stupid or afraid to come to their own conclusions: And realizing they're being lied to.

How to marginalize the Southern right wing lunatic fringe that is creating a hatefest all around the country.......sigh.

Thank you for doing this. I'm sure this will be passed around frequently......it has to be.

@Shoq @karoli this rocks. So now I've put it on my Posterous and let's see if we can get it to go out further...do you think we can get to Congress with it? Let's try! @lisastone @blogher

Great video Shoq & Karoli! I wish everyone would watch this.

@shoq u are a genius and this should be sent to every congressman, every news outlet, and every teaparty or mob group you can find!! Thank you very much!

Poor Debbie. Have you ever travelled to Canada? You'll find that most are english speaking and other than a "eh" here and there, they do not have a strong distinct accent. Now, if you travel to the province of Québec, where many are french speaking, yes we have accents. This is as scientific as one going to Texas and bumping into a group of americans that perhaps live there but are from Michigan; being a Debbie, one must wonder why they don't sound like the Bush clan. Oh well... "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it have an accent?" I'm canadian, born and raised and I have lived in the USA for 29 years... I'm lucky to have a job that pays 85% of my insurance premiums, though for a family of 3 it does still cost me $235. per month. Not to mention the cop-pays, the portion that isn't covered or the $250 dollars here and there that aren't covered for some outpatient procedures. Oh, and guess what, have you ever tried to book an appointment with a physician for a check up and get one within a month; I'm in the Boston area and have to wait months before being seen, unless of course I have an "urgent" need and then I have to see a certain doctor first so he can charge me to tell me I need to see a specialist. Maybe it's just me but if I have a problem with my ears, I think I can figure out pretty easily that I need to see an eye/ear/nose specialist, without having to pay this middle man $250. for me to just wait another few weeks so he can refer me and send some paperwork to the receiving specialist... At the end of the day, you do not receive better medical attention in the USA than Canada or Sweden or Norway or ...

Thank you for reading my rant.

Miss Dube

It would be helpful to the discussion if they knew what they were talking about..just one of the honest quotes from a real Canadian talking about Health Care. This is an excellent video and captures the Canadians disbelief on why people are FIGHTING free health care. Please watch and share..All the answers are right here. Great work Karoli and Shoq..thank you again from writing this!!
Patty Dove
www.pattybrooksdove.com

What do Canadians think about their healthcare? Watch the video.

Illuminating interviews with real Canadians on what they think of their health care system.

FAMOUS CANADIAN ACTORS/DIRECTORS/PRODUCERS

William Shatner (Canadian actor) James Cameron (famous director) Kiefer Sutherland (famous actor)
Keanu Reeves (actor) David Cronenberg (director) Leslie Nielson (actor)
John Candy (actor) Norman Jewison (director) Neve Campbell (actress)
Christopher Plummer (actor) Colin Mochrie (actor) Martin Short (actor)
Donald Sutherland (actor) Michael J. Fox (actor) Jack L. Warner (producer)
Matthew Perry (actor) Tom Green (actor) Louis B. Mayer (producer)
Dan Aykroyd (actor) Mike Myers (actor) Bain, Conrad : Actor
Pamela Anderson (actress) Jim Carrey (actor) Bairstow, Scott : Actor
are all Canadians without an accent.. so eat me!!

Heroes among us: Matte Black & his brother & Karoli.
Thank you.

Well, really Matte & his brother. They did the hard work, just letting me ride along for the heckuvit. :)

Not much good unless it gets out there...and you've done that! Thank you:)

Good video. Thank you for doing this. I hope it is aired on some of the major networks. And someone said there are no accents; there are but subtle and wording is different.

Thank you for taking the time.

Excellent post...this is what Americans need to hear...Please watch and share. Important information! Thank you for putting this on hear.

Patty

Fantastic post! So glad you did this. I've been passing around links to this page since I found it. Thank you.

Thanks, Kevin. :)

Canadians GET IT. Why can't the American wingnuts against health care reform finally get it. Perhaps the Obama administration should have revamped the educational system first so that folks could get up to speed.

Totally agree with the revamp of the education system. My kids get enough real information from me that they are at least able to understand what's fact and what's spin in their textbooks, but Republicans have worked very, very hard to undermine public education, too. It's not in the spirit of free enterprise, after all. :)

And yet I have this: Woody, and my letter to President Obama. http://post.ly/3A2Q

What I find odd is these ppl have no, and I mean no, Canadian accent which is very distinct. But who knows. I'm just saying...

There is no such thing as a "Canadian" accent. That would be like saying there is an "American" accent. You know, people from Boston, New York, Dallas, and L.A. all sound the same, eh?

The "accent" in and around Toronto is very neutral. People who study broadcast there have an easy time getting work anywhere in Canada/USA.

Um, Canadians don't sound like "South Park Canadians". I'm from Toronto, and EVERY one of these ppl is Canadian, and absolutely SOUNDS it! The woman who says she's "from Toronto" pronounces it like a local! Americans NEVER pronounce it the way she does, only WE Torontonians do.

Debbie. HAHA. No Canadian accent? You cannot be serious. They ALL do. Have even BEEN to Canada, or are you just a paid troll?

LOL...to this Californian, they do, but Canadian accents are subtle. You hear it in the word "about", but it's not a heavy accent. They are all Real Canadians, Debbie. With names, ages, and real medical needs.

Others have made videos with shills. These people were not shills. They took time out of their day to answer questions and allow those answers to be shown on video. You may not LIKE the answers, but hey... they prove the lie of the Republicans.

You MUST be American ... LOL ... Do you have much interaction with Canadians. I have no accent. Most of us don't. But glad that's all you know of Canada

Don't you love the COPAY, DEDUCTIBLE, PREMIUM??

All Canadians who love their Canadian healthcare so much are all dead.
@Shoq told me.

Why do they have no dead accents? They don't SOUND dead.

All these people are living people.

This video is contrived and hand-picked, just like the comments here. And the music is annoying. How hard did you try to find just one opponent of Canadian Healthcare? C'mon, you really expect people to take this seriously?

Come on down or up i guess and we could contrive 1000 more videos just like it! I don't even know why i care if americans have good healthcare but it's hard to see good people get so screwed!

Thank you! It's truly nice to know you care, especially when you don't have to. Our media covers those who would make you think those of us who can't get coverage are lazy-no-good parasites. Most of us are tremendously productive, etc. I believe you probably understand that.
Thanks!

Again, as the guy who made the video, you're right, I didn't look hard for an opponent of the system, but at the same time, I didn't find one. The people are hand-picked in that they are people I happen to know, but that doesn't make their comments any less valid. Keep in mind, in poll after poll, over 90% of Canadians are satisfied with the system, even if they don't rave about it. You can't get 90% of Americans to agree that the earth is round.

And 78% of Americans are happy with their HC and that number is climbing daily.

First, from where does your "78%" statistic come? And is that 78% of ALL Americans? or 78% of the ones that are lucky enough to HAVE Health Insurance? I'm happy to have what I have. I'm generally happy with it, true enough. But I am sickened that not everyone in this country has health coverage. That not everyone in this country can go to t Doctor when they need it. It is a national disgrace, and if you are not ashamed at letting your fellow Americans suffer and die without adequate health care, then I truly pity your humanity.

ignorance is bliss

There aren't 78% of Americans who are adequately insured to get their needed health care, so the 78% number probably comes from Lewin Group, which is a wholly owned subsidiary of United Healthcare, and thus, biased.

SASKATOON — The incoming president of the Canadian Medical Association says this country’s health-care system is sick and doctors need to develop a plan to cure it.

Dr. Anne Doig says patients are getting less than optimal care and she adds that physicians from across the country – who will gather in Saskatoon on Sunday for their annual meeting – recognize that changes must be made.

“We all agree that the system is imploding, we all agree that things are more precarious than perhaps Canadians realize,” Doing said in an interview with The Canadian Press.

“We know that there must be change,” she said. “We’re all running flat out, we’re all just trying to stay ahead of the immediate day-to-day demands.”

I would warn Canadians about anyone who argues for private insurance. PLEASE BE CAREFUL!
Private insurance can work with public plans. France, Switzerland, and Germany do it. Germany is the best, because, like the others the private insurance companies are highly regulated and NEVER allowed to victimize the people, and Germany's system does one better by making the private insurers no-for-profit. By including the not-for-profit clause, there is NEVER a motive to make profit from someone's pain and misery.
My warning to Canadians is be careful of US companies that want to offer private insurance. They ONLY care about profit. They deny coverage, ration care, and dump you immediately if you get really sick, ie. rescission. And it's all legal in the US. With rescission, when you get really sick, ie. cancer, it's so expensive to treat, the insurance company can't make their outrageous profits from you, and so they dump you immediately. They don't have to pay a dime anymore, even if you have been paying premiums for years and years. And it's legal. So if you're kid gets cancer, they'll dump the whole family and not pay anything. This is REAL! Google Rescission and see for yourself. It's legalized victimization of America's citizens.
So please be careful. No matter how bad it is, for-profit in healthcare is a bad idea. DO what Germany did if you have to and make them not-for-profit and make sure it is heavily regulated.

All of those quotes are taken out of context. "Imploding" is hyperbole used for any issue you make noise about. The context of that story came down to tweaks need. Almost NO ONE but free market fanatics ever even pretend to suggest canada would ever change it's basic system. You need to read more.

Quoting the incoming CMA president Dr. Anne Doig isn't selling your cause. She's a prairie free-marketer who thinks that doctors, not patients, should reform healthcare. The third "privatize it" CMA president in a row. Thankfully the president moves to Manitoba and east of there next year. They get saner and less greedy as you move east.

And judging from the comments at http://www.ratemds.com/doctor-ratings/44130/SK/... she's not the kind of GP I would want.

this is just more propaganda. Not that I'm surprised, mind you. Just somewhat bemused. If you think our system is so terrific, you must be one of the few with the money to afford it.

Another view on Health care http://u.nu/63z43

Do you know the difference between Ann Coulter and the Hindenburg? One is a flaming bag of hot Nazi gas while the other is merely a dirigible..

wow you just posted a Ann Coulter link, in which she says Medicare is a horrible program (please, oh please try to cancel Medicare, I am begging you, seniors will revolt on a mass scale and never vote Repub again), and how bad it is because it does't cover acupuncture and aromatheraphy (just goes to show how out of touch she is if she thinks any regular insurance covers those).
And some how private insurers allow Medicare to function? really? since premiums for private insurance have doubled since 1999 and are to double in 10 years, I would love to know how that is financing Medicare? and here I thought tax dollars paid for it. i guess I was wrong and Coulter was finally right? NOT!

In case you didn't see this on mainstream media of all things, John Stossel's own report on Canadian HC http://u.nu/88z43

funny how he didn't mention that,
22000 die each year because they can't afford healthcare. EACH YEAR!
millions go bankrupt in the US due to medical bills and they HAVE insurance. how many go bankrupt in Canada due to medical bills = ZERO!!!

but don't worry about them. those that can't afford insurance must be poor, and who cares about them, right?. and those that have insurance but go bankrupt are stupid, right? "compassionate" conservative? more like heartless hypocrites.

Yes, and John Stossel is so ... what's the word? Oh yeah, full of shit. That's the word.

John Stossel is full of corporate pork. HIs video is the contrived one. Even Wendell Potter knows better.

lol wow @Shoq blocked me for stating a simple facts.... no rebuttal just named called me and blocked me...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbHh86HkBhk

haha. LMAO!!!
a warning to all Canadians, this is a video by conservatives for patients rights, CPR. http://tpmlivewire.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/0...
"Rick Scott, the founder of an organization that's been funding anti-health care reform protests and the former CEO of a hospital company that, as Sanchez pointed out, paid $1.7 billion to settle charges of overcharging Medicare and Medicaid."
the founder's business, while he was CEO, was held liable for $1.7 BILLION (not million, but Billion) of fraud with Medicare and Medicaid! and he's running CPR.

please, let me warn all Canadians about these groups and their members.
in the US
22000 die each year because they can't afford healthcare. EACH YEAR!!!
millions go bankrupt due to medical bill and they HAVE insurance. THEY HAVE INSURANCE and they went bankrupt!
insurance premiums DOUBLED since 1999, and will DOUBLE in another 10 years.
insurance companies only care about profit. they deny coverage, ration care, and will dump you immediately if you get really sick, ex. cancer, in a process called rescission. so you can premiums for years, but if your child gets really sick, they will dump you immediately and not pay a dime for treatment. good luck trying to get care without insurance or money (chemotherapy and the rest is 10s of thousands of dollar per month). and in the US it's legal.
we careful of these so called "compassionate" conservatives. SCHIP is a program to help poor children to get healthcare. it was passed mostly by Dems and only very few Repubs. conservatives did everything in their power to prevent poor children from having healthcare! Bush didn't want to extend SCHIP, and said private insurers could do it, and unsurprisingly they didn't. Bush was the poster boy of "compassionate" conservatives and he didn't want to provide healthcare for poor children!
these conservatives are the same ones who go to church and talk about God, and then they call the poor lazy or that they deserve it. seriously. they also talk about God's work and refuse to provide healthcare to anyone. They hate Medicare and Medicaid, healthcare for seniors, poor, and disabled people. Time and time again they underfund it. And then they cry about how inefficient it is and how we should cancel them. Dems passed Medicare/Medicaid (with a few Repubs). Same for Social Security. Same for SCHIP. The Repubs continue to underfund all these programs then they rant how broke they are. Seriously. How can you rant about how broke they are when they underfund them? Because they hate those programs. They want everything to be private.
so while their fellow Americans die, or go bankrupt, or are victimized by the private corporations, these "compassionate" conservatives look the other way and applaud big business.
PLEASE be very careful of them and what they say.

http://www.infowars.com/obamacare-is-a-eugenics...

Brandon Turbeville
Infowars
September 4, 2009
Before I weigh in too deeply on the current healthcare debate I would like to make it clear that I am neither a Democrat or Republican, nor do I consider myself a liberal or conservative.. The only alignment I wish to make for myself is with freedom, liberty, and a basic respect for the Constitution.
Let me begin by saying that I am actually quite open to the idea of a single payer healthcare system here in the United States. I have heard proposals that I believe could achieve the goal of healthcare for every American without raising taxes and without the Federal or State governments being involved in the doctor -patient decision-making process. Of course, these proposals have been scrapped and ignored from the very beginning. But, as I say that I am open to the single payer system, it may surprise many that I am opposed to the current healthcare bill generating so much debate around the country. So, let me explain myself..
First, this bill is not single payer. The mainstream media has created a false debate in this country. Liberals and democrats support this bill because they see it as single payer healthcare for all while conservatives and republicans oppose it because they see it as single payer socialized medicine. But as the American people argue over something that does not even exist, they completely miss the things that spell the opposite of healthcare for all as well as the things that are much worse than “socialized medicine.” Essentially, this bill is going to require every American to purchase a private insurance plan with their own money. If you can’t afford this private insurance, then you will be “taxed” or fined by the government (Title IV, P.167).
Secondly, before denying healthcare to the elderly and the handicapped became a national joke, there was a flicker of debate about what the mainstream media mockingly labeled as “death panels.” I regret to inform the readers that these panels do in fact exist both within this bill as well as other legislation. Section 1233 of the healthcare bill is rife with clauses that establish government control over the health care procedures you undergo particularly at the end of life. This section asserts that a government approved list of end of life resources will be established(Section 1233, p. 425) as well as the required “end of life counseling” every five years or if his/her health takes a sudden turn for the worst (Section 1233, P.425). It goes even further to say that a government board will determine what level of treatment you will receive, if any, at the end of your life (Section 1233, P.430). Section 1162 indicates that the government will
mandate what it calls “outcome based measures,” which is a polite way of saying rationing (Section 1162, P.335).
The government panel that will make these decisions is actually already in existence. It was created earlier in the year tucked away safely in the stimulus bill. The stimulus legislation created a new bureaucracy called the Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research which is modeled on a UK board that oversees the rationing of healthcare procedures in that country and uses a formula to determine who receives care and who doesn’t (McCaughey ). With its’ focus on “cost effectiveness” and “outcome based measures,” it is clear that the elderly, the handicapped, and the chronically ill will receive far less care than younger healthier patients as they are seen to benefit less in terms of quality of life and quantity of years. Yet it should be clear to everyone that it is not a question as to whether or not these individuals will benefit from the treatment, it is a question of whether or not they are seen as a benefit to
the governmental establishment.
If one is not convinced of the intended rationing of healthcare by simply reading the bill, then he/she should consider what the authors and largest supporters have said in regards to it. Former Senator Tom Daschle, also a former Obama nominee for the position of Health and Human Services Secretary, actually wrote many of these provisions (McCaughey). Daschle is quoted in his book as saying that Americans expect too much from their healthcare system and that Europeans should be commended for being more willing to accepting “hopeless diagnoses” and foregoing “experimental treatments (McCaughey). He also goes on to say that seniors should be more accepting of these hopeless diagnoses and illnesses that come with age instead of treating them (McCaughey).
Ezekiel Emanuel, health policy adviser at the Office of Management and Budget as well as a sitting member of Federal Coordinating Council on Comparative Effectiveness Research is quoted as saying that doctors take the Hippocratic oath too seriously, “as an imperative to do everything for the patient regardless of the cost or effects on others” (JAMA June 18, 2008,). Indeed, that is generally what patients want from their doctors. In an article written for the Hastings Center Emanuel says, “services provided to individuals who are irreversibly prevented from being or becoming participating citizens are not basic and should not be guaranteed. An obvious example is not guaranteeing health services to patients with dementia” (Hastings Center Report Nov.-Dec. 1996, p.13). Emanuel is clearly advocating a eugenics-based rationing system.
The healthcare bill also contains other frightening clauses such as Subpart XII, Section 340L which establishes a “Corps” that will conduct “Home Healthcare visits” as explained in Section 1713 to assess the designated families’ “economic self-sufficiency, employment, school readiness, and educational achievement” and to coach them on how to raise their children(Section 1713,P.768). This bill does in fact contain provisions that would set the wages of doctors (Section 225 and Section 223), possibilities of a draft to a National Health Service Corps (as mention also in the stimulus bill; section 1713), creation of a National Medical Device Registry(Section 2521), and potential to mandate even the food we eat (Section 3121).
It is important for the American people to realize that this bill is not single-payer and that it does not provide healthcare for all. It is a eugenics program that will ration healthcare for most and outright deny it for some. The mainstream media and those who control it have created a false debate among us in an attempt to divide and distract us from the real issues at hand. The American people continue to argue with one another over issues that do not even exist. While we spin around chasing our tails they attach yet one more link in the chain of tyranny and government control.
Works Cited
HR 3200 “Making Healthcare Affordable” PDF file
“Ruin Your Health With the Obama Stimulus Plan,” Betsy McCaughey, Bloomberg News
“The Perfect Storm of Overutilization”, Ezekiel Emanuel, Journal of American Medical Association, June 18, 2008
“Where Civic Republicanism and Deliberative Democracy Meet,” Ezekiel Emanuel, “The Hastings Center Report Nov.-Dec. 1996.”



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I'm sorry, but quoting Betsy McCaughey immediately discounted anything
you have to say in this comment as far as I'm concerned. She has no
knowledge of what she claims, and is simply a mouthpiece for
disinformation and absurd claims.

Anyone that quotes Betsy McCaughey has long ago missed the clue train. She is a paid shill, and will say whatever anti-reform BS she is paid by whoever pays her the most to say. There's another word for what Betsy is ... can't think of it just yet ... Rhymes with 'more' but it's spelled with a 'W'.

So you think that insurance companies denying up to 40% of claims for profit doesn't constitute rationing?

Insurance bureaucrats stand between physicians and patients rationing care and making treatment decisions instead of physicians.

Transplant committees in the US ration care by being able to deny transplants for any reason, usually based on a "psycho-social" interview. What that means that they can deny a transplant based on the candidates "social value" which means their percieved value to society, and their ability to pay.

That situation does not exist in Canada. If someone is denied a transplant, it is totally because it would be detremental to their overall health, usually that they would likely die during surgery, and this type of denial happens very rarely in Canada.

Our bill is going to be extremly different then Canada's it's those parts I do not like amongst other things.



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Well I doubt that the things you suggest actually mean what you say, that there's clarification later or elsewhere.

Basically the US legislation creates a physician run health care system as opposed to the insurance run health care system you have now. You paranoid Americans would find mortal danger on a box of Corn Flakes.

lol so your not american?



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Of course our form of government is very different as well. There has to be an election at the maximum every five years, but there are conditions where an election can be forced.

For example currently:
Conservatives 143
Liberals 77
Bloc Quebequois 49
NDP 37
Independent 2

Since there is a Conservative minority government, if 144 or more opposition members vote non confidence in the government, an election is forced, no matter at what point it occurs. Basically if the Conservatives propose something we don't like, we push opposition members to force an election and we vote them out. That gives us far more control over the government than the US has. With four major parties, the chance of a majority government (more government members than total of opposition) is not very great any more.

holly jeez if your not american then why are we having this talk? LOL The problem is our country is headed in a direction of governmental over control. We are headed to a point were there are talks about we don't know when but soon something new is going to happen...

When Clinton was elected there was the Oklahoma bombing.... When Bush was elected there was the 9/11 attacks... mark my words... something soon will happen again to America just like every time a president comes in that's new and changing things a little more to be controled by the government.



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I worked for a multinational company for 35 years and, because of job cuts in Canada, had to work in the US for seven years during the 1980's and got out of that US healthcare swamp as soon as I could transfer back. The quality of healthcare I had in the US was horrible compared to what I had in Canada before that and have had since I came back.

Hi. I'm a real Canadian. Born, bred and live in Montreal. (FYI.. Americans all think I'm from NY... ??? So much for you guys knowing accents. And FYI... Anglo Montrealers ALL sound different depending on their ethnic origin. A McGill prof does research on this if you care.)

Let's see. I used to ski race and play other insane sports. So I've had 6 knee surgeries, 1 shoulder surgery, broken collar bone, 4 broken ribs, cracked hip, a dozen or so broken fingers and so on....
I've had gall bladder surgery, a benign tumour taken out of my hip, anaphylactic shock -- a few times and in a few cities, major concussions, and many nights spent in hospitals. I've had all my shots, all my travel clinic shots, all my blood tests, all my MRIs, Xrays, CTscans and even post-concussion neurological testing all done for free. Never seen a bill. NOTHING. NADA. NICHI VO.
Just handed over my Medicare card and the government paid.

We do however have to pay for renting a TV when you are in the hospital. That can be annoying cuz we are so spoiled we think it should all be for free.

I've had accidents in Vancouver (Whistler) and Ottawa,and been really sick more than once in Toronto. No problem. Handed over my Medicare card and the hospitals sent the bills to Quebec whom I assumed paid, cuz I never saw a bill. (Can you do that from state to state with your HMOs and insurance companies?)

After the orthopaedic who did my first 3 knee surgeries moved to Calgary, I must have seen 15 other orthopaedics in a three month span before I settled on the guy I have now. (Do you have this kind of choice with your HMOs and insurance companies?)

For the most part I am happy with our system, and would never trade it for your system any day of the week. I'd go into detail about why all the anti-single payer types are just ignorant, but I've given up on trying to explain gravity to people who live in outer space.

Is our system perfect. Nope. In fact, I would like to see a real discussion of what is wrong. In Montreal, in the English system there are a couple of problems.
1) we don't have enough doctors.
2) The hardest part of this system is getting through to secretaries to make appointments. They are just too busy to answer the phone. So instead, I have learned to get on my bike, walk into a clinic or office and talk directly to a person. Poof, then everything is great. But sometimes you just don't feel like doing that. As a doctor friend of mine readily admits, "forget trying to get through. I can't even get through to my own office. Just come by and make an appointment."
3) McGill med school makes people competent, but arrogant. (Egomaniacs with self-esteem problems.) If the doctor is a jerk, 2 hours in a waiting room is a nightmare. If the doctor treats you with respect and kindness, you don't mind waiting. But they either don't get this or don't care.

Combine that with a nurses, orderlies and technicians who are overworked and treat patients like crap and you get what truly ails the Quebec English system: Lack of person to person humanity.

(I don't know, do all Americans feel like because they are paying big bucks they are given kinder, gentler and better service by their doctors? That is certainly the impression we often get up here.)

On the other hand, I've recently started seeing doctors in the French system, and find them kinder, gentler and more patient centred. More willing to spend the time to get to the bottom of what ails you. (I could go into why I think this is, but it's too micro-political for anyone in the US to care.) I also found the doctors a hell of a lot nicer in Ontario and British Columbia. But I might just be watching the other provinces through rose-coloured glasses.


4)Wait lists: If it's an emergency, you will be taken care. If you really do have a brain tumour, a neurologist will see you within a day or two. If you have a benign tumour but start losing your vision, they will see you that day or the next.(Shona Holmes -- the liar who makes other claims on American TV commercials should be forced to stay in the United states because she is diminishing the Canadian gene pool.) And, if it's not fast enough, all you have to do is go to an emergency ward and you will get immediate care.


There are no wait times for anything that is an emergency. Not cancer, heart disease, stroke victims etc... HOWEVER, if you need hip or knee surgery, this is where the rationing comes in.

Contrary to what some people say, the problem in orthopaedics is not that we need more doctors. (We do) But they don't have enough Operating Room (OR) time. My orthopod has 500 people on his waiting list for knee and shoulder surgery. His hospital is getting two more orthpods. However, no one is increasing the amount of OR time alloted toward these types of surgery. THIS is a problem. A serious one that needs to be addressed. It's lost in the rhetoric.

We spend 10% of our GDP on health care
US spends 16%

As my orthpod said to me last week. "If they spent the exact same amount they are spending now and put it into a system like ours... they WOULD have the best system in the world. It would be AMAZING health care down there." FYI - he did a couple of years of fellowship at some American hospital in the south so he knows the system well.


5) Two- tiered health care. (Our word for privatized health care) The real two-tier system comes from having connections.
As an athlete on high-ranking teams I never waited for knee surgery.
Now I get appointments the same day I call, because I've made friends with all the sports guys.
As a kid my parents always had a friend's house we could go to at 10pm if a contact was stuck deep inside an eyelid.
As an adult, four of my best friends from childhood are doctors.
The same goes for my brothers.
Between all of us, we can get any help we want.

Most people do not have GPs. In theory I don't either. Instead I walk over to a friend's house,and get a medical consult any time I want. If I need a "referral" to see a specialist, I use their names.

THIS is the un-talked about inequality of our system. If you know your doctor and they like you, they will never make you wait and they will treat you well.

If however, you get hit by a car and end up as an anonymous body with no advocate in an over-crowded, under-staffed emergency ward, the medical care will be mostly fine, but your dignity as a human will not be acknowledged. (I know this one well. And the minute morning broke and I could contact friends, my care got exponentially superior.)

And how does this work for you guys? Do you have instant access to everything you need? Is the only thing that stands in your way money/insurance/HMOs?

So what does this all mean?
I wouldn't trade our system for any part of your system, but that doesn't mean we don't have problems. In an ideal world we would have our system with your money. Then, connections wouldn't matter and we'd really rock the house down.

I'm a doctor in the US.
Your 2-tiered system is nothing like our multi-tiered system.

the best group are the rich. They are entitled, and they make sure everyone knows it. They usually have what is known as Cadillac health insurance. It covers everything and anything. When they go to a hospital, they have connections and they use them. The Chief of staff will check in their care and browse their chart. If they want something, we must obey, and they will get it. If you don't, the Chief of staff WILL call you. Not a pleasant conversation.

Another tier is where many with insurance fall. They have insurance and they go to a doctor when they need to. Mind you the hospital will bill the insurance company. It goes to the billing dept., which has a staff of 50-100 people in a medium-sized hospital. Insurance companies will do all they can to deny ANY and ALL claims. That's why there are 50-100 people. Just to make sure the hospital gets paid. On top of that, insurance companies have limits on what they cover (so the hospital or patient has to pay), and how long the patient stays (this is not up to the hospital or the doctor). If the insurance rep looks at the piece of paper on pneumonia, and it says 3 days, then ALL patients are covered for 3 days. And no complications don't factor in. If the patient is still sick after 3 days, the hospital pays and doctors are reprimanded for not treating it in 3 days (as if somehow we are God and can prevent complications and outliers from happening). Now if you run your on practice on the side, there's even more complications. First you have to hire a staff to deal with payments form the insurance companies, ie. extra overhead. And even with that, most of the times I have to speak to them. I, a medical professional, will have to explain to an insurance bureaucrat, with little to no medical background, why I did what I did, and why it was necessary. I often fax over pages of medical textbooks to convince them. Sometimes even when I do all this, they say that it isn't covered on their sheet. THEY'RE BASING MEDICAL CARE ON A PIECE OF PAPER over what I'm saying. So then what? Then nothing. Either I or the patient has to pay for a test that I consider medical necessary. And if there's a problem, and the patient sues, only doctors can be sued. The insurance industry is exempt from law suits for medical malpractice. They make decisions. So as a doctor sometimes you do the test because you know it should be done, and then you eat the cost of the test.
I spend a minimum of an hour a day after patients leave, talking to insurance bureaucrats with intellectual level of a college grad, if I'm lucky, and they have NO medical knowledge. But they have their piece of paper.

Then another tier is the poor. They are what the "compassionate" conservatives called lazy or that they deserve it. If the poor have a serious medical emergency they are taken to the nearest hospital. There, per the law EMTALA, everyone is evaluated and if a medical emergency exists, they must be stabilized. If they are taken to a non-community hospital (read: for-profit and rich hospital), then they are stabilized, usually with meds and minor intervention. These hospitals will first do a "wallet biopsy", ie. see if you can pay. If you can't, they will do everything they can not to do surgery or any serious interventions (read: expensive care). They will medically stabilize (minimum requirement of EMTALA) and then ship to the nearest community hospital (read: poor government hospitals who actually work on poor people).
At the community hospital they will get surgery, ICU care, and hospital stay. The taxpayers pay for the community hospitals or the cost is passed onto those with insurance.
Now here's the medical perspective. A patient without insurance will not see a doctor because they can't afford it. That'll go on for 20+ years. No preventative treatment, and no counseling. So high blood pressure, which can easily be managed and treated with pills that cost 100/year for most, will go uncontrolled for 20+ years. Eventually the high blood pressure, an easily controlled medical condition, will become a serious medical issue because it was not controlled. Uncontrolled high blood pressure is a cardiovascular problem and can effect every organ system including the brain (ie. stroke, aneurysm). When they come in after 20+ years of untreated high blood pressure they usually have problems in many organ systems, and since they have no history, ie. previous medical care, we have to do the complete workup, what we call "the million dollar workup". And yes it can cost a million dollars, although usually 100s of thousands of dollar. Including all the specialists, ER care/eval (very expensive), ICU stay, and very expensive meds.
So instead of paying $100/year for meds and a yearly doctor's visit (like a civilized and modern country would do), the US decides to pay for the million dollar workup. Does this make sense to anyone? Seriously?
Also think about basic human decency perspective. Healthy people are happy people. Healthy/happy people are productive members of society. People who suffer chronic diseases that are uncontrolled become progressively worse which affects their stamina, thought processes, productivity, and quality of life.
So that's the US medical system. Make sense? Not for me either. And doctors don't have control over patient care in this country. We are cogs of the capitalist system about making money. It comes down to money. And ONLY MONEY!

Wow... You know this wkend I met an American doc who thinks there is nothing wrong with the system. He says if the malpractice issues and the wastes associated with it were taken care of, there would be enough money to pay for all the uninsured in the USA. He's a cardiologist in Florida. Do you have any opinion on this?

yeah, it sounds wonderful, however, Canada is not involved, to any great extent, in any major overseas war. They may assist, support us as our ally, but financially, they are not as committed or involved as the US. Neither are they in debt up to the eyeballs to China, like the US. Their economic system, at this point in time, is much more stable than ours. What is THEIR national debt ?? I would venture to guess its not even close to 23 trillion, at last count, ... That health care bill, should it pass, will bankrupt the US... they "figure" that it will cost America 50-55 billion/year to pay for health care for all. If that is as accurate as all the other monetary amounts that they have come up with for various other projects, than I imagine it will be closer to double that... at least. I don't know what they answer is, but I DO wish that Obama would take care of one issue at a time.... end the war, get all the boys back in one piece and THEN work on the next issue... having 6-8 issues all going at once translates to nothing getting accomplished at all, or worse, some getting done poorly and ineffectively, which either helps a select few, or no one at all.

As long as we can have a war, we can't get health care. Brilliant.
Let's wait until everything else is done and paid for before we even begin to think about protecting the health of our nation. Even more brilliant.
Meanwhile, those CEO's make billions in bonuses by denying claims of those who have insurance. Really super Brilliant!

I must confess. I am not allowed to swear here. So instead of swear words, I say "Brilliant"

premiums have DOUBLED since 1999 and are set to DOUBLE by 10 years.
and your financially "astute" observation is not to worry about this now?
so if there are financial problems on many levels, we should take care of them one by one ONLY, and refuse to take care of the ones we can easily do now until other ones have been taken care of?
how about before we take care of any of that, including the war, we take care of the possible water shortages. just because I said so.

So you're essentially saying that a problem that existed before,
during and after the war should remain unsolved and exacerbated
because the US was lied to and misled into a war they never should
have undertaken in the first place. Yeah, I don't think so.

If you think that the *current* situation withe medical costs isn't causing a great deal of strain on our economic system, you aren't paying attention. Look at how much of our GDP we spend on Health Care. 17%. Look at what the rest of the world spends. between 1.5% and 6%. We simply cannot be competitive when we are wasting 11% of our GDP on health care to no purpose, can we?

President Obama doesn't really have the luxury of doing one thing at a time, considering the complete train wreck that the last Administration left behind. He can't really say "Let's leave the economy in shambles while I deal with these two ridiculous wars." Or "You boys hold covering fire over there while I deal with this cratered economy. Be with you as soon as I can." You see, this dry-drunk fratboy drove the country into a ditch and then walked away, so now that we're back to having an actual adult in charge, we kinda have to sweep up the carnage as best we can and try to get things put back together.

But back to Healthcare: the costs, at this point, is simply smothering our economy. With premiums for businesses going up sometimes as much as 100% per year, and medical bankruptcies accounting for over 50% of all bankruptcies, these costs are destroying our competitiveness. They are destroying American business, and costing jobs.

Think how many MORE jobs would be available if employers didn't have stifling healthcare premiums? Think how much more money consumers would have if they weren't crushed under the weight of a $6,000 MRI scan for a headache?

Our troops are fighting and dying side by side with yours in Afghanistan. Your media only mentions the Americans, but our guys are dying right beside yours.

I'm a Canadian from Nova Scotia and I totally agree with all the comments in the video. Thank you of doing this.

I hope it helps the 36% in the US who have either no access or insufficient access to the kind of easily accessible and high quality health care which we take as a right of being a Canadian.

I have had several serious medical issues myself and so has my family and have always been able to have access to all necessary procedures within a reasonable length of time.

As a person who retired after 35 years with the same company at age 55 with a full and decently large pension (we can retire earlier because we don't have to worry about health insurance) and am now almost 60, it would mean that I couldn't afford healthcare in the US from age 55 to age 65, when I'd be eligible for Medicare. My hypertension would probably kill me if I couldn't have it monitored and treated for that length of time.

I have passed the link to this video along to several American pro-reform websites.

Oh, just a clarification, because Americans, and maybe others get this wrong. Canada does not have "socialized medicine"

The definition of socialized medicine is that government actually OWNS the hospitals and that physicians are civil servants.

In US terms, Medicare and Medicaid are single payer but not socialized medicine (physicians are in private practice and hospitals are not government owned)

DVA is single payer and it IS socialized medicine (physicians are civil servants and the hospitals are owned by the government).

In Canada physicians are in private practice (except medical researchers, medical school professors, and physicians who work full time in hospitals-like ER physicians) and hospitals are non profit with non government boards (many owned by religious organizations, charities, or an independent regional health authorities). So Canada does not have socialized medicine.

Wow.. I didn't know that. I had no idea what the actual definition of socialized medicine is.

Hey Murphy

FYI:

The American Heritage College Dictionary, Third Edition (published by Houghton Mifflin Co.) defines socialized medicine as:

"a system for providing medical and hospital care for all at a nominal cost by means of government regulation of health services and subsidies derived from taxation."

That sounds like us to me.... although I'm way more intrigued by your definitioin. Where did you get it from?

Exactly, it's an AMERICAN dictionary, as I said Americans aways get it wrong. . I guess the misuse of the term has been officially adopted to some extent in the US. After all the Americans are never wrong are they?

The definition that I gave above is the original, technically correct one.

You can find the real definition of socialized medicine here:

http://www.medterms.com/script/main/art.asp?art...

says: Socialized medicine: A system of health care in which all health personnel and health facilities, including doctors and hospitals, work for the government and draw salaries from the government. Doctors in the US Veterans Administration and the Armed Services are paid this way. And the Veterans and US military hospitals are also supported this way. Examples also exist in Great Britain and Spain.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialized_medicine

says: The original meaning was confined to systems in which the government operates health care facilities and employs health care professionals. This narrower usage would apply to the British National Health Service hospital trusts and health systems that operate in other countries as diverse as Finland, Spain, Israel, and Cuba. The United States' Veterans Health Administration, and the medical departments of the US Army, Navy, and Air Force would also fall under this narrow definition. When used in this way, the narrow definition permits a clear distinction from single payer health insurance systems, in which the government finances health care but is not involved in care delivery.

http://rolandhulme.blogspot.com/2009/09/guess-w...

says: In that respect, one of the few true examples of 'socialized medicine' is Britain's 'National Health Service' - in which the British government builds, owns and operates hospitals, and employs the doctors and nurses who work there.

That's why the NHS is 'socialised medicine.' Socialist principles are deeply ingrained in every part of the structure and organisation of the NHS. It's state-run healthcare from the ground up.

In comparison, almost all of the health care systems incorrectly accused of being 'socialized medicine' are very far from that.

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There are many (mostly non American) other sources but these are three.

This is really what we need here!

This can not be true, republicans told us so, and they wouldn't lie, WOULD THEY?????

Random people all needing that much health care? How much of their taxes went to healthcare? Until recently, why did Canadian doctors want to move to the US? US needs reform, but where do they go when the system doesn't work. Canadians go to US, where do US citizens go if they emulate the Canadian system?

Nobody said our system is perfect. People are free in democratic societies to live anywhere they want to pursue any goals they want. People leave for all sorts of reasons. I spent my 20s living in Eastern Europe... Some of my friends spent that time in Japan.
My cousin is a surgical resident and married another resident last wkend. Half of his year's McGill med class was at the wedding. None of them are leaving the country. Sure they will do fellowships or whatever they are called in the States... but I didn't speak to anyone who wanted to live and practice medicine the US.

Guess what michael.. the entire world does NOT want to be American or live in your country. Get over it.

Get your ego in check...I said nothing of the like.
Until managed care killed healthcare in the US, you would find hundreds of Canadian doctors working side offices along the border. The reason was they could make 3 to 10 times the income that way. It is still common to see Canadian doctors working the ERs in northern states on the weekends. The recent medical adviser to the California Workers Compensation system was an ex-Canadian Orthopedist. He related the Exodus of doctors to the US and other countries after the conversion to single payer in Canada prompted the the Government to seize all assets of the doctors to force them to stay or loose everything. How often does that story get out? The united States has a single payer program in the form of Medi-care. No doctor would participate without the threat of being barred from hospitals. The Doctors are paid far below the cost of delivering the service. Before Managed care, it was absorbed by those that paid more. The US does not have a perfect system, it is crumbling and needs reform. The chief reform should be in the way of regulation. The insurance companies get preferential tax treatment and are delivering less product for premium paid. They are making medical decisions and are not held accountable. The US has a southern neighbor that takes billions of heathcare services and threatens to sue if they are denied. What would happen to the Canadian system if Billions of service were given away to non-citizens?

"you would find hundreds of Canadian doctors working side offices along the border. "

Really? Hundreds???? I bet you could count those numbers on a hand or two. Show me the numbers, cuz I've never heard of it. In fact, I bet it is not allowed cuz that would be double-dipping --against Cdn law. What you do see a lot of in quebec are doctors working across the border one day a week in ONTARIO (That's a province in Canada in case you've never seen a map.) because they get paid more there.

"The reason was they could make 3 to 10 times the income that way. "

uh huh.. and pay 20x more in malpractice insurance. And by the way, I know a neurologist who lives in Vermont but works mostly in Montreal. She's an American. Her husband's job is only in Vt. She wanted to stay in Canada. Likes the system better. But one person does not a trend make.

" He related the Exodus of doctors to the US and other countries after the conversion to single payer in Canada prompted the the Government to seize all assets of the doctors to force them to stay or loose everything."

Canada was fully converted to govt run single payer healthcare by 1970. Were you even born then?

"Seize all assests and force to stay or loose everything."

Do you have ANY IDEA what you are talking about? Yup.. That's us. Stalinist Russia. Let me guess you get all your info from Fox and Glenn Beck? Do you have ANY IDEA what you are talking about? Funny how the loudest people with the least amount of facts are the ones talking out their ass.

"The united States has a single payer program in the form of Medi-care. No doctor would participate without the threat of being barred from hospitals. The Doctors are paid far below the cost of delivering the service. "

I'm not American and will not comment on this, but doesn't sound like what any of my American cousins who are doctors describe when discussing Medicare.

" The US has a southern neighbor that takes billions of heathcare services and threatens to sue if they are denied. "

HUH??? And how does this play into people being denied services after paying into insurance for years and years but being told to F-Off the minute they get sick. How does this play into people being afraid to leave jobs cuz health care is tied into their jobs?

"What would happen to the Canadian system if Billions of service were given away to non-citizens?"

Actually, here's a story for Glen Beck. Know why we got pictures on our Medicare cards here? Because the people scamming our system were American cousins. Yes, the people who come here to scam our system are AMERICANS! US healthcare-less citizens borrowing our cards and having their babies and seeing our doctors.

There is nothing more obnoxious then Americans spewing crap about places they have never been to or experienced. Personally I couldn't care less what you do in your country. Wallow in it. It's your life. But stop feeding crap to everyone else.

The fact is you already spend 17% of your GDP on health care. If you spent exactly the same amount in a single payer system you guys WOULD be the King of the World.

The ex Canadian Doctor is Allan McKenzie, M.D Orthopedic Surgeon. http://www.healthline.com/doctors/orthopedic-su...
He should be about 70 now. I am 53. Feel free to ask him about seized assets for leaving. You can also ask him about doctors working across borders.
Something more recent http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/85323.php
BTW I am a doctor so I know the facts I "spread". Medicare pays $350 for a cataract removal if that gives you an idea of the fees. I am impressed that Canada turns away foreigners that abuse the system, we would have a more stable system if we did that, but we don't.
Why are you being defensive?
I have not said the American system is better.
I have not said the Canadian system is worse.
What I have said is that the whole truth is not being told.
What I have said is the American system needs reforms.
Hospitals are not allowed to to bill medicare if they close their ERs. Many hospitals tried as that is the biggest money loser for them.
Most Americans are not aware of the politics in Medicare. At one time I owned a durable medical equipment company. I closed it down after witnessing unbelievable rampant fraud. Administrators ( like myself at the time) could get filthy rich while health-care personnel struggled.
The average Canadian pays more in taxes for health-care than the average American pay for insurance premiums. It is really not fair to compare though because the average Canadian is paying for himself and those that don't pay taxes.
Here is another tidbit. Before managed care 80% of my practice paid me well enough that 20% paid very little or nothing at all.
Basically free care from the same doctor that rich people went to. Now my overhead is 80% of my income. How much do you think I can afford to give away? Actually more because I am semiretired and it is the right thing to do.

Am I the only one who is going to weigh in on this "seized assests?" Or is it just too ridiculous for anyone else out there to even bother. OKAY.. We CONFESS.. Yes, in the late 60s... the Stalinist State, helped by Beria seized all the land and assests of every physician in the country! Then, we sent them all to the gulags of the Yukon and the North West Territories.

WTF?

Every doctor then, like now is given a choice. Opt in or opt out. If you opt in you get paid by the govt. If you opt out, every patient you have has to pay you independently. There is NO double dipping. PLUS, no supplemental insurance company covers procedures. ONLY diagnostics.

However, in the 1960s, I believe that medicare initially agreed to pay at rates determined by the provincial medical associations (i.e. the doctor's unions). Then, in the 1980s (I believe), the governments reneged on this, and began unilaterally determining doctor's rates (with some input from medical associations). At various points in my lifetime, including a year or two ago, doctors have gone on strike. In the last version of this, the key negotiated clause was that there were no ceilings on the amount of money specialists could make per year.

But I guess this is what Frank Luntz calls "seizing assests." Just like intelligent living wills have become "death squads." Yes, you are right. The whole truth is not being told. That's because Americans are calling a man who wants to give everyone FREE and EQUAL health care "Hitler."

That's why I'm defensive. Because you yourself are bringing Fox's massaged synonyms and wanting to use them as part of an intelligent debate about what is wrong up here.

There is plenty wrong up here that needs fixing, but I've never heard a single American talk intelligently about how they could take a great system and make it better.

No one "seized" anyone's assests if they left in the late 60s and certainly no one "seized" any of Allan Mackenzie's assests. He left in the mid to late 80s when I was somewhere in my teens. Given the fact that he was a big black anglophone man in xenophobic, parochial, nationalist and downright racist Quebec, I'd venture to guess there were a whole slew of other reasons why he (and a couple of million other folk) left this city. But he's not going to explain Quebec politics to Americans. And, he thought highly enough of the system itself to send this city a couple of California orthpaedic residents every year. (They were easy to spot at Sports Med Clinics or when being wheeled in for knee surgery.)

As for $350 for a cataract removal. Considering it's about 10 minutes of work. I think it's pretty darn good.

As for Canada turning away foreigners. Yes, Quebec has taken steps to eliminate fraud in one sense, but we don't turn away anyone. In fact, in Toronto, there are very specific clinics that are set up where they mostly treat patients without proper documentation or their OHIP cards. Most of these people are really hard-working refugee types from war zones. My friend says they were the best patients she ever had, and it was the best clinic she ever worked in.

As for the US attitude towards "illegals," Immigrants keep both our countries going. They are giving back a whole lot more in cheap labour than they are getting in free health care. Even the libertarian anti-health care reform group whose name I've blocked at this moment admitted this in a huge paper a month or so ago.

Next: The average Canadian pays about $5,000 in health care taxes. Apprently, that is pretty much what Americans pay for in coverage. HOWEVER, we have no premiums, we have no "co-pays" (What is that anyway? ), it is not tied to any work place or business, and you can never be denied care because of a previous illness. PLUS, no insurance company paper-pusher over rides any doctors in this country. (Like WTF?)

I honestly don't know what the term "managed care" means, but I'm guessing it's a time before insurance companies were beholden to stock holders, and health care became a corporate for profit stock-optioned business.

But I think your point is that this system sucks. So stand up and yell. Stop denouncing other systems until you actually look at the facts -- but not the ones you hear about on Fox News.

OK, so now we must assume Dr. MacKenzie lied about his personal property being seized and he worked in the ERs of New York on weekends ( like many Canadian Doctors) and he left Canada to go to the US to escape racism.
I was not there, I believed the man. Doctors revolting in the system is of no concern. ( they maybe happy now but who cares about the past) If I believe the Canadian medical association the system is on the verge of collapse.
Do I want the Canadian system? No
Do I want the current American system? No
As it is now, we have both. Insurance and Medicare.
Medicare is filled with fraud that the government is only to admitting now when they want to use the savings of fraud recovery to fund other programs. People like myself have been yelling and screaming about the fraud. Honestly why would anyone pay $850 for an Aluminum Cane. The insurance system is basically self regulated. Incrementally they have reduced benefits and increased profits.
Allowing the illegal immigrants to work cheap but get get free healthcare supports slavery. They should be documented legally and paid a fair wage. Whether they give more than they take is a discussion for another blog. I am tired of the students losing ground in learning because the classes are taught in two or more languages. Put a price on that.
All that aside. We need healthcare reform but we currently are told to vote for a plan without clearly defined applications. And yes there are suggestions on how to make it better, I have been (currently not) on the committees that have constructed plans to improve the system. But you don't hear about that, do you. You hear only one side of this issue. The plan ( with no definition) and those that don't like it. Really, you believe their are no alternatives being suggested...not even one?
$350 for ten minutes work? The actual procedure maybe, but that is like saying all it takes to light a house it to flip the switch. Minor things like wiring, electricity and light bulbs come into play. Out of that $350, the doctor may keep $50 or less after expenses. ( if he has volume, he may make a profit) My Plumber got $250 for less than 15 minutes of work to unblock my sewer pipe. What to you think his overhead and education was compared to the doctor?

K, so now we must assume Dr. MacKenzie lied about his personal property being seized and he worked in the ERs of New York on weekends ( like many Canadian Doctors) and he left Canada to go to the US to escape racism.

YES. Either he is lying, or you misunderstood what he said. NO ONE SEIZED ANY PERSONAL PROPERTY. EVER! Believe what you want. In addition to every physician I could possibly find who think I'm friggin IDIOT for even asking the question, today I nearly got tossed off my neighbour's sailboat. He's a former Deputy Minister of Health here and was so angry at these made-up allegations he had no words.

Medicare started in Sask in 1962. By the time it went to the other provinces the doctors all saw that it worked. The Church or the community groups had no problems giving up their operating budgets and transferring their hospital assets. The groups then concentrated on funding research or capital programs that ran alongside the hospitals.

HOSPITALS IN CANADA ARE ALL RUN AS PRIVATE NON-PROFIT CORPORATIONS.

Even when the province would de-commision hospitals, they would not sell-off the building. Instead they ceded them to local local not-for-profit groups who continue to operate it.

THIS IS NOT THE SOVIET UNION. People are free to come and go from this province as they please. No one takes any of my assets if I'm an engineer, or stock broker or farmer. Why would they seize assets if you are doctor.


Did he work ER shifts in NY. SO? Who cares? He wanted to make more money. Probably in Malone. A brand new hospital opened there in the 80s. Montreal being the closest city they went out of their way to bring in Montreal doctors. "Stay close to family but get the F*&K out of Quebec" was their message.

And, if u knew/understood anything about Quebec, you'd know that this province lost every good everybody and every major corporation between the late 70s and mid-90s. Until the mid or late 90s this city was a third-world run-down decrepid Flint Michigan.

Racism was/is only a small part of this place. And given today's festivities in Quebec city, not much has changed.

Here's from today's Gazette
http://tinyurl.com/p46f5x

No anglo who wanted a real job stayed in this province between the late 70s and mid-90s. Eventually it was rebuilt by the Swiss pharmaceutical world who were given a tax-free haven and didn't care about the politics, language issue, separation referendums and the fact that they had to speak French. They built themselves huge plants in the West Island english speaking world and hired people at highly reduced salaries. You'd be amazed at how many major drugs were developed here: Vioxx, Singualar etc..

We also BTW specialize in tele-marketing fraud.


The Cdn medical system is not on the verge of collapse, but the last 2 directors and the current CMA head are part of an American insurance-backed initiative to promote private health care. And by the way, even the most right-wing of all these guys were never promote an american version of health care. They know they were be tarred and feathered in a public square.

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I wonder what the medicare fraud in the US is compared to the insurance fraud?

And just cuz there is fraud, so dismiss the entire program? You can't get away with an $850 cane in Canada. So why can you in the US? That has nothing to do with the system. Rather than the way it is being run.

Funny, I've never heard a Medicare recipient complain about the care they were getting.

Ditto for any vets. My 83 year old uncle in Vermont LOVES all his Vet benefits. Gee.. that's socialized medicine isn't it?

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Allowing the illegal immigrants to work cheap but get get free healthcare supports slavery. They should be documented legally and paid a fair wage.

Oh please. Americans would never do that. If they had to pay real wages you guys wouldn't have such cheap stuff. and that would never fly. EVER! Everything about your system goes hand in hand. That's why it is so difficult to change anything. From your election system that means you are up for re-election basically every 2 years to the idea that regulation is bad. It's an ideology that identifies Americans to the core. Nothing is ever going to change in your country because people who call Obama Hitler for wanting to give them free health care -- are celebrated!

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Whether they give more than they take is a discussion for another blog.

No. It's not. It's a statistical fact put out by one of your libertarian organizations that opposes health care.

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I am tired of the students losing ground in learning because the classes are taught in two or more languages. Put a price on that.

OMG --- ONLY IN AMERICA! From the time I started school I was taught in 4 languages. I learned a 5th in university and a 6th when I left school and moved to Eastern Europe. The ONLY unilingual people in the western world are Americans and separatist Quebecois.

The problem is the US system of education. My brother has been spending $15 000 a year for my 9-year nephew in Rochester NY. After 15 years in the US he has just moved back to Montreal. Kid is in Grade 4. It's one thing that he is behind in three of the 4 languages, he now has to learn. It's pathetic that he is behind in English and math as well.

And they also moved back because in the next couple of years the kid is going to need open heart surgery. They would not have been able to afford it. NO MORE NEED SAID.

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And why is there no real plan for healthcare?
Because everytime something substantial is discussed it gets re-created into "death squads" and lies about the government making the decisions about your health. (I know if I was a school teacher in Alabama I would want a high school educated pencil pusher at Blue Cross deciding if I could have my medication or not.)

You can't have an honest conversation about policy or health care because people like Glen Beck, Bill OReilley and Rush Limbaugh make more money than you, and the American public is too stupid not to listen to them.

That's the Matter with Kansas! (to misquote Thomas Frank's book.)

There are more physicians coming INTO Canada than LEAVING over the last four years, some are American physicians and most prefer the Canadian system to the American one, where they spent more time on paperwork than they did seeing patients. Many Americans come to medical school in Canada because the cost is far less than in the US and many Americans who go to medical school here stay.

That is true, but what was it for the prior 20 years? There are days I spend more time on paperwork that patient care.

I've always had easy access to a physician in the three provinces I've lived in and I'm 60 years old. When I lived in the US in the 1980's, physicians were deluged with paperwork then. I always had far easier access and far better quality care in Canada than I had in seven years in the US. Also Canada's loss of physicians to the US has been averaging 1/4% of all Canadian physicians per year over the last 20 years. More physicians graduate each year than left for the US each year during that time.

I'd venture to say my physician friends spend a very small proportion of their day on paperwork.

And that's the point.

They chart. The secretaries go click click with the medicare cards. They sign the visa-like forms and then they ship them to the gov't. One giant envelope for everyone.

As for 20 years ago, it was pretty good, It was during the 90s that huge cuts, older docs were given early retirement and the system was bleeding all over the place.

We need more money. We need more doctors, and quite frankly, we need medical schools to remind students that being a doctor means you have to interact with real live human beings.

http://mediamattersaction.org/factcheck/2009061...

important for all to read to have amunition to counter lies.

This is just great. Well Done! Bravo for you for doing this!!!
Maybe we'll retire to Canada?

You have to be in Canada for three months before you become eligible.

There is one primary difference between Canadian healthcare and the US system (other than money). In the Canadian system ALL medical decisions are made in private between the patient and their medical professional. In the US system all medical decisions are made by a clerk in an insurance company.
Americans seem to prefer medical care as directed by insurance company clerks. Go figure.
If Obama would simply hammer home this one issue with $100,000,000 in advertising, the debate would be over. Every time one of the right-wingnuts talks trash, the Democratic machine needs to publicly excoriate the hapless boob for preferring insurance company clerks making your medical decisions.

This is what American citizens need to hear. Canadian citizens talking about their Health Care System with no Political Bullshit.

As a Canadian who's been living in the USA the past few years.. I'd give anything to have my healthcare back. Won't be able to move home anytime soon though.. but I will NOT be retiring here!

Everything in the video is true. I know *I* definitely took it all for granted. My first Dr visit in the USA cost me about $500 - for a checkup and a thyroid blood test! You just don't think about stuff like that in Canada. What a rude wake up call.

Also, I've never had to wait for anything in Canada. Contrast that with the fact that it takes 3 months for an appointment to see my primary care Dr here in the USA. 3 MONTHS!!

No one asked me and while I don't want the US system I don't want Americans to think single payer is the answer. Several members of my immediate family, including me, have had to pay thousands out of pocket for surgery because we had to travel out of the country. The wait lists were years long and we were all in pain 24/7 and in some cases couldn't even walk. Right now my mother at 84 can't get shoulder surgery for 18 - 24 months even though the pain is so bad some days she would prefer to die....If you have single payer healthcare then your healthcare will be rationed - it has to be. Healthcare alone could eat up your whole national budget...be careful what you wish for and look to Europe for examples of public/private systems that work better than North American systems.

The thing about posts like these, is that I never believe them. Are you telling me there was no one you could pay off in whatever province you live in?
This happens all the time in Montreal.
Not to mention, there are private clinics all over Quebec -- the backwater province of this country.

If you have the money to take yourselves out of the country and pay exorbitant American fees, then surely you have the 4grand it takes to have your surgery here at a private Montreal clinic done by the regular doctors who moonlight.

I am a Canadian living in the US. First, I would like to say that I do love living here. It is a great country; the people where I live are wonderful and the opportunities for advancement are endless. I only have one complaint, the very same complaint that I share with most of my American friends; the health care system sucks!

It makes me ill when I hear people say that in Canada we have no right when it comes to choosing a doctor. That simply is not true. In Canada you can pick up the phone and call any doctor's office and as long as they are accepting new patients -you are in! My experience here has been just the opposite. If I want a doctor here, first, I have to call my insurance provider and ask them which doctors in my area are accepting patients with my "brand" of insurance. The last time I was looking for a doctor, there was only one doctor in my area (actually in the next town over, and I live in a town with over 95,000 people) who was accepting new patients with my kind of insurance. That actually sounds a lot like what Americans seem to think the Canadian system is like, doesn't it? What happened to freedom of choice? The only ones with freedom of choice here are: the doctors who can pick and choose what kinds of insurance they want to accept and the insurance companies who arbitrarily decide how much they are willing to pay for your procedures.

Lastly, yes, the lines to get into the emergency room are long in Canada. That's because people don't hesitate when they are in need of medical attention. Last time I ended up in the emergency room here in the US, I was in and out within 45 mins. Not because the doctor was so fast or because the service was better, but because of the fact that there were simply no patients!! Did I mention that I live in a town with over 95,000 people? But the best part about my trip to the emergency room was the bill. It cost over $1250 for my son to get a piece of tape for the cut on his upper lip. And two weeks later I got a surprise from the emergency room doctor for $100 and then another week later a bill for $250 from the hospital. So, I was out $350 for a piece of tape, not to mention the $500/month cost for insurance. Over the last 3 years my father has open heart surgery, prostate cancer surgery and knee surgery. The cost - $0, and he did NOT have to wait 6 months for the surgeries.

Ok, Canadians pay taxes for health insurance, but a recent Harvard study showed that at the end of the day Canadians pay far less via their taxes for 99.9% health coverage while Americans pay more per month in insurance costs for partial coverage. What system is better, you really need to ask? It's really no contest!

By that I mean latching on to this or that latest, most innovative idea that some self styled money making guru has put out in the hope it’ll go viral and make them a lot of money off the backs of all the headless chickens who will follow them blindly down a blind alley. Its a shame but a truism nonetheless that people will follow where someone they see as an expert leads. Even if they lead them to certain disaster, which is what most of the gurus tend to do to their flocks.
The trick is to recognize a shadow when you see it!

www.onlineuniversalwork.com

Had I moved to Canada in 1969 to dodge the draft I would be a happy Canadian with health care. Since I'm disabled I have Medicare. Thank goodness. My wife? Works full time and we can't afford health care for her. We filed bankruptcy when I was unable to work. We survived, own our home (of no value since its worth was stolen from under us) and are just waiting to lose everything again when and if the wife gets sick. Oh what a country. Can't have health care, the rich might have to pay taxes, heaven forbid.